Donald Rumsfeld stapt op

[thinkalot]

Origineel gepost door bur

Minachting is iets wat je later parten kan gaan spelen thinkalot,

Je bent geen haar beter dan wie dan ook dus stel je alstublieft niet zo op, met je je blijft steken op een bepaald niveau.

Als dit niveau te laag voor je is tja dat is jouw probleem.

einde bericht

Je beschuldigt me dat ik geen ervaring heb, en alles uit boeken haal. ik beschuldig je van het omgekeerde maar dan zeg je dat ik je minacht. Dan ben jij even schuldig aan minachting.

[bur]

Origineel gepost door thinkalot

Je beschuldigt me dat ik geen ervaring heb, en alles uit boeken haal. ik beschuldig je van het omgekeerde maar dan zeg je dat ik je minacht. Dan ben jij even schuldig aan minachting.

ik ben er klaar mee,

ooit misschien in dit leven misschien in het volgende kom je erachter dat je kennis uit boeken geen reet voorstelt.

doei thinkalot ik vind je een naar mannetje dat neigt naar fundamentalisme door het continu goedpraten van gedrag van terroristen.

Dat je het zelfs durft om dat soort acties te nuanceren.

[corazon]

klik

[thinkalot]

Origineel gepost door bur

ik ben er klaar mee,

ooit misschien in dit leven misschien in het volgende kom je erachter dat je kennis uit boeken geen reet voorstelt.

doei thinkalot ik vind je een naar mannetje dat neigt naar fundamentalisme door het continu goedpraten van gedrag van terroristen.

Dat je het zelfs durft om dat soort acties te nuanceren.

Waar lees jij verdomme dat ik dat gedrag goedpraat? Jeetje stop eens met fantaseren.

Mijn kennis uit boeken? Ik kijk naar het nieuws. Je wilt in dze topic meedebatteren en je wist zelf bniet wat er was gebeurt in Beit hanoun.

[thinkalot]

Origineel gepost door bur

Gast en de laatste bomaanslag in een bus he dat waren ook tien vrouwen 8 studenten 12 mannen.

Ze zijn allebei net zo schuldig dus stop met het goed praten van gedrag van terroristen.

En stop met dat minachtende toontje van je aub

Heb ik niet gezegd dat palestijnen die bussen opblazen inderdaaad terroristen zijn? Kan jij echt niet lezen of zo?


Ik schreef:
"Wie wel als terroristen bestempeld kunnen wordne volgens internationaal recht is de Palestijnse burger die met een bom op een Israelische bus stapt en burgers dood. maar dat was niet het geval met de slapende kinderen en vrouwen in Beit Hanoun. Je gebrek aan dossierkennis doet me lachen."

[thinkalot]

H-geschreven door een Joodse israelische journalist die werkt voor Haaretz. Hij zegt net hetzelfde, net zoals Noamchomsky, Amira Hass, Ramsey Clark.Zijn zij ook verdedigers van terroristen en fundamentalisten? en weet je, ze halen hun kennis uit boeken en levenservaringen. Zij weten waar ze het over hebben.


As difficult as it may be for us, it’s important to make clear the political, legal and moral reality in its historical context: Since 1967, millions of Palestinians have been under a military occupation, without any civil rights with, and most lacking even the most basic human rights. The continuing circumstances of occupation and repression give them, by any measure, the right to resist that occupation with any means at their disposal and to rise up in violence against that occupation. This is a moral right inherent to natural law and international law.
The problem is worsened by physical proximity, in which the two populations live next door to one another, and how that imposes itself on the form of fighting. Indiscriminate Palestinian terrorism against civilian populations in the heart of Israel is immoral, and has a boomerang effect. It increases anger and hatred in the Jewish community and blocks the possibility that an empathetic, rational view can be taken of rightful Palestinian demands. The terrorism also serves as a political tool, consciously used by cynical politicians on the right, and lately by some leading army commanders, to torpedo any possibility of agreements between Israel and the Palestinians.

Furthermore, steps initiated by the army and the settlers often result in the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians, which is equally unacceptable by any human measure. Hundreds of Palestinians have been killed and thousands wounded since the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in late September. Israel now turns frequently to collective punishments – sieges and carving up of Palestinian territory – that are expressedly forbidden by international law and convention. And Israel uses personal terrorism against those it defines as field commanders of the Palestinian uprising.

The Palestinian right to resist the occupation is strengthened by the Fourth Geneva Convention’s ban on creating irreversible facts on the ground in occupied territories, and especially the ban on transferring populations from the occupying state to the territories it has conquered.

According to the High Court of Justice, which is well aware of the Fourth Geneva Convention, all the settlements over the Green Line were built for “security” reasons, which is the loophole Israel found in international law to justify their construction. The second “legal” loophole used by Israel is that it does not expropriate private property, only establishing settlements on “state lands.”

Since 1967, more than 60 percent of the West Bank has been defined as “state lands,” which in effect has meant selective, de facto annexation of the territories. This “legal” step was made possible because most of the land was not properly listed in the books – whether Ottoman, British or Jordanian. But all those governments recognized the traditional ownership of the territory’s farmers.

Israel made an unprecedented land grab in the 1980s, when it surveyed the entire territory, compared its findings to the tabu (land registration documents), and declared everything unlisted as state property – without allowing local inhabitants prove their ownership and record their holdings. Thus, the legality and morality of all the Jewish settlements and holdings in the territories is highly doubtful.

Several phenomena have dulled Israel’s political and more senses. Until the end of 1987, Palestinian resistance to the occupation was only a minor discord. Israeli society enjoyed the fruits of the “permanent temporary” occupation without paying any significant and immediate price for it. Under such circumstances it was easy to combine nationalist-religious messianism, Likud-style secular chauvinism, and the security-above-all ideology of Mapai and Ahdut Avoda to conquer Israel’s political culture.

Even today, most of the public simply does not know that every violent step taken against the Palestinians – let alone the aggregate of those steps – borders on war crimes, and cannot see the black flag of illegality flying over each of those steps. A state that regards itself as enlightened cannot behave like a terror-state, even if it suffers from terrorism. Statesmen, generals and simple citizens must see that black flag before it’s too late and we are all stained with the blackest of the black.

[thinkalot]

Verdrag van Geneve:

Collective or individual forcible transfers of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited.
gebeurt constant!

Transfers of the civilian population of the occupying power into the occupied territory, regardless whether forcible or voluntary, are prohibited.
Kolonisten overtreden dus de wet

Collective punishment is prohibited.
Soldaten geven toe dat ze collectief straffen. Dat ze 10 a 20 huizen platbombarderen als ze vermoeden dat uit die wijk een "terrorist "kwam.

The taking of hostages is prohibited.
gebeurt voortdurend

Reprisals against protected persons or their property are prohibited.
De ministers zijn gekidnapt, dit is veroordeeld door EU.

The confiscation of private property by the occupant is prohibited.
Gebeurt dagelijks
The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities.

Gebeurt dagelijks zonder dat de vwn vervuld zijn.

People accused of criminal offences shall be provided with proceedings respecting internationally recognized judicial guarantees (for example, they must be informed of the reason for their arrest, charged with a specific offence and given a fair trial as quickly as possible).
Ze worden met bosjes opgepakt , zien een jaar geen advocaat of rechter en worden dan vrijggelaten, zonder ooit beschuldigt te zijn geweest.

Personnel of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent Movement must be allowed to carry out their humanitarian activities. The ICRC, in particular, must be given access to all protected persons, wherever they are, whether or not they are deprived of their liberty.

Het Rode kruis maakt dagelijks meldingen dat ze tegengehopudenworden door de ISraeli's

[thinkalot]

Wat de termen van de Israelische wordvoerder eigenlijk in de praktijk betekenen. heeft een speciaal inzicht over het belang van woorden.

Glossary of Occupation
by Paul de Rooij

Language is a powerful yet deceptive thing. It can be used to convey someone's plight and it can also be used to hide unpalatable sordid deeds. Nowhere are words adulterated more for political ends than in Israel and Palestine today. It is no secret that Israel employs a legion of well-funded propagandists, and it also relies on self-appointed members of the press--the pro bono apologists, who serve the same purpose. Just like the lopsided imbalance of military power, the means to command and change language rests primarily with pro-Israeli propagandists. Their language obfuscates and exculpates Israel's actions against a basically defenseless population; it perpetuates the injustices and contributes to a continuation of Israel's occupation and theft of more land.

To make sense of the situation and to peer through the fog, a fraction of the post-Oslo commonly abused terms are translated in this glossary.


Abused Terms

Administrative detention

Imprisonment without charges, trial, sometimes without legal representation, for undefined terms. Imprisonment usually takes place in prisons and even in a concentration camp in the Negev desert.

Bilateral negotiations

Confiscation of land. Israel confiscates/steals land, and to legalize its claims it engages in "bilateral negotiations." There have been no bilateral negotiations about Palestinian claims pertaining to land inside the Green line.
Bypass road network

Exclusive Israeli-only roads carving up the West Bank and Gaza -- the concrete manifestation of the policy to divide and rule. All Palestinian property within an arbitrary range of the road is bulldozed, all trees uprooted. Bypass refers to the fact that the roads avoid Palestinian towns.
Caught in crossfire

Deliberate Killing

Check points

Choke points strangulating Palestinian economic activity by closing roads and not letting any Palestinians pass without lengthy and often unnecessary humiliating personal searches.
Clashes
An unequal contest.Clashes suggest that two equal forces are slugging it out, but the Israelis happen to have one of the most powerful armies in the world.
Closed military area

A demarcation for the press and observers to stay out so that they won't witness the depredations of the occupation forces.
Closure

Siege and curfew. Curfew is implemented for weeks on end thereby creating an end to normal life for all innocent civilians.
Cycle of violence

Disproportionate violence. "It suggests, at best, two equal sides, never that the Palestinians are resisting violent oppression with violence." John Pilger, New Statesman, July 1, 02.
"Yes, there is a cycle and the violence is disproportionate, but what is missing is the context. Why is there violence at all? The standard refrain, when it is rarely mentioned, is there is "hatred" on both sides. But since Israelis are like us (fun loving and child hugging) and we don't think of ourselves as hate-filled, then it must be the other side, the Arabs, who are hateful. Add the history of persecution of Jews into the mix, and what you have is a cycle of violence based on Arab hatred of the Jews. Presto, we arrive at the Israeli propaganda line." Nabeel Abraham.

Democracy

Chauvinist ethnocracy. During the apartheid years in South Africa Whites also claimed to have a democracy and were rightly ridiculed for this posturing. Israel isn't much different, and its political system cannot be praised or labelled "democracy" due to its systematic oppression of others.
Democracy is inclusive; the Israeli political system excludes a large portion of the population. Israel is the only country making a distinction between citizenship and nationality. Thus Palestinians living in Israel have an Israeli citizenship, and an "Arab" nationality. Democracy applies to the Jewish nationals, not to the citizens of the state. There are Arab members of the Knesset, but their rights are curtailed in the Jewish state. Palestinians in the occupied territories have zero democratic rights although they are forced to pay some taxes to Israel--a case of taxation without representation.

Demographic factors

"Israeli newspeak for keeping the Arabs from outnumbering Israeli Jews." --Nabeel Abraham
Deportation
Expulsion or exile. The dictionary definition of deportation: banishment of an undesirable person to their native land. Given that Palestinians are natives, thus legal residents, their expulsion is an imposed exile. Furthermore, the term deportation implies that the Israelis are just pursuing legal procedures. The dubious nature of the appeals process and the simultaneous demolition of the victims' homes contravene the Geneva Convention.
Disproportionate response

Harshest admonishment uttered by the US gov't in response to Israeli bombings or assassinations. By implication a "proportionate" response--killing less people--is acceptable. The complicating factor of the usual Israeli actions is the press coverage. However, "proportional" responses are ignored.

Disputed territories

Occupied territories. Curiously enough this term was coined by the US gov't under Clinton. Language reflects policy preference and the nature of the US "mediators". (see honest broker)
Facts on the ground
Settlements. At best they are considered bargaining chips, at worst they are considered immutable.
Final status negotiation

Chimera. The Oslo framework stipulated negotiations dealing with matters of substance and most important to solve the conflict. Note these negotiations are always in the future. Current negotiations deal mostly with issues of interest to Israel, e.g., security, confiscation of more land (see bypass road network).

Generous offer

Demand for surrender. Anything that the Israelis offer is generous, and should be accepted. The Camp David II "generous offer" amounted to an offer of a fraction of the West Bank and Gaza, no control over borders, limited removal of settlements, and no sovereignty, yet this was supposed to be generous. In good faith negotiations the parties have a right to refuse an offer without admonishment.
Green Zones

Palestinians out. "Zoned areas in the Israeli-occupied Arab residential areas of the territories which are protected allegedly for environmental reasons. A legal sleight of hand to prevent Arab development."
--Nabeel Abraham
Hamas

Catch all opposition group. An Islamic opposition group fostered by the Israeli secret services during the first intifada. Its purpose was to undermine the support for the PLO. Since then it has become an effective opposition force opposed to Arafat's sell out. Anyone voicing criticism of the "peace process" is automatically classed as a Hamas supporter. Several leading intellectuals who objected to Arafat's shoddy approach to negotiations earned themselves a Hamas label by both Israelis and the Palestinian "authority".
Held in detention

Hostages. Practice that became common during the first intifada whereby Israeli occupation forces imprison family members of wanted persons. Several Lebanese hostages have languished in prison without charge, trial, and with no prospect for release. Shaykh Ubayd has been held for more than 13 years. They are held even though the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon has come to a partial end.
Honest broker

The United States. The country supplying Israel with most of its weapons and giving no-strings-attached economic handouts--several billion dollars every year not counting forgiven loans.
Incursion

Attack. "The latest euphemism, 'incursion', is from the vocabulary of lies coined in Vietnam. It means assaulting human beings with tanks and planes." John Pilger, New Statesman, July 1, 02.
Instilling hatred

Palestinian News, Education. Describing the consequences of occupation to its own population. The term "instilling hatred" is used to describe any Palestinian news or information, and forms the justification to bomb Palestinian TV and radio stations, and even target individuals linked to some schools. Also a justification to remove accreditation of all Palestinian journalists. Israelis find it galling to be called assassins, thieves, and occupiers. Palestinians are not allowed to convey their experience to others. Palestinian existence is criminalized, and so is their voice.
Israeli Defense Forces, IDF

Occupation Forces. I "D" F confers some legitimacy, but it is a misplaced respect for a fully equipped army of occupation.
Israeli-side

the "Israeli side". Today's euphemism for the occupation forces. Azmi Bishara, July 25, 2002, Al Ahram A curious adoption of a euphemism by both Israelis and the Palestinian "authority".
Leverage
Offers you can't refuse. "In essence, Israel holds most of the 'cards' and its willingness to use the population as hostages, coercing the Palestinian leadership to accede to ever more onerous demands." Dr. Majed Nassar

Israeli desire to determine the outcome of negotiations on the basis of balance of power instead of a balance of justice.

Man of Peace

War Criminal.

Militants
Resistance. Western media cannot portray the Palestinian resistance as military because this label obviously doesn't apply. Instead they use "militants" also conveying the impression of armed gangs, and therefore easier to justify Israeli assassinations. (see targeted killings)
Moderate physical pressure

Torture. Israel is the only country in the world where torture is legal and used routinely.
Natural growth
Subsidized settlement expansion. Justification to continue expanding settlements. Every time demands are made for Israel to stop building settlements on occupied land, its retort is that expansion of existing settlements must continue to accommodate "natural growth", i.e., the subsidized stream of immigrant colonialists. Many of the settlements have a large percentage of empty housing, bringing into question the need for further expansion.
Neighbor practice

Human shields "The use of a local resident as a 'human shield' is a war crime. That was confirmed, on live television, by a senior reserve officer, the former president of the highest military court. The Fourth Geneva Convention expressly forbids the use of 'protected persons' (as the convention calls inhabitants of an occupied territory) for such purpose. This practice, like the practice of compelling Palestinian neighbors to tour buildings suspected of being booby-trapped, is similar to the killing of hostages in retaliation for resistance actions It was disclosed that this is a widely-used method, which has even been given a regular military appellation: 'neighbor practice'. Not long ago the army promised the Supreme Court to give up the practice [but] had no intention at all of fulfilling the promise." --Uri Avnery, Palestine Chronicle, Aug. 19, 02
Neighborhood
Settlement. Israelis and their apologists insist that Gilo is just another neighborhood of Jerusalem. The fact is that it is built on illegally confiscated occupied land--thus a settlement.No building permit

Order for destruction. An excuse to demolish Palestinian homes. Israeli buildings built without a permit are issued with one retroactively and are spared. No Israeli-owned home has ever been demolished for lacking a permit. Palestinians cannot in general obtain building permits.
Operation X

Another attack. Military operations are given names to make them more palatable--it is a military marketing gimmick. Any journalist referring to an attack on refugee camps by the operation's name is in the very least not trying to be objective.
Peace process.

[Note that Ariel Sharon's pronunciation of this is closer to "piss process." He seldom refers to "peace" as an outcome. He is always in favor of the peace process, but not peace.] Ruse to placate world opinion. A perpetual process not intended to reach any conclusion. A means for Israelis to gain time and consolidate their hold on the occupied territories by expanding the "facts on the ground", i.e., the settlements. From their viewpoint, the longer the negotiations leading to endless haggle the better. Occasionally, if negotiations are advancing, they may need a timely disruption, e.g., hold an election and it is time to start the negotiations all over again!
Pending investigation

Case closed. Of 25 Israeli army investigations in the past 22 months, six were closed without a result; others have yet to be completed. "The army hardly ever opens investigations into cases of unlawful killing," says Lior Yavne, Btselem's spokesman. "The army is basically conducting a policy of impunity. Soldiers realize they can do anything they want and they will not face problems." --Marie Colvin, "Cruel death of a West Bank local hero", Sunday Times, July 21, 02

Phased withdrawal

Grudging Israeli pullout of occupying forces over the area it chooses, on a timescale it determines, and only after it obtains guarantees that the local population will be policed to its satisfaction. No settlements are ever dismantled, only areas where the cost of occupation has become too high.

Proof of residency

ID confiscation. Palestinian residents of Jerusalem are often asked to show their ID papers to prove their residency rights. Often police confiscate the identity papers, and thereby these people lose their right of residency. It often leads to the families in question being split up and losing their homes. The victims of this bureaucratic "transfer" policy number in the thousands. ID papers are generally not reissued--the victims cannot prove their residency because the papers were confiscated. Photocopies of ID papers aren't considered valid proof to reissue documents.Reform process

Satrap selection. Political transformation that delivers the collaborators with Israelis and Americans. Any politician signing up to this must accept to oppress their own population to comply with Israeli/US demands. Arafat had signed on, but couldn't deliver.

Removing cover

Pretext to flatten homes, clear agricultural fields, trees, and so on. Making a lunar landscape out of the West Bank and Gaza.

Restraint

Kinder/Gentler Aggression. "If this is the latest Israeli military spin, the reality for Palestinians is that even 'restraint' by the Israeli army is enough to make their lives miserable. The army may no longer be destroying vast chunks of Palestinian cities, but it continues to terrify Palestinian civilians by indiscriminate shooting. The army still sends tanks and troops into Palestinian towns for forays of several days, as it did in Jenin last week, or for a single night as it did twice in the northern part of the Gaza strip. Curfews are slapped on or lifted without notice, making life for all Palestinians unpredictable and humiliating." Jonathan Steele, The Guardian, August 9, 02.


Retaliation, or Israelis never initiate violence, they always respond.

State terror, or wholesale violence. The actions taken as reprisals are: (1) collective punishment on targets unrelated to the original action, and (2) totally out of proportion to the original action. On both accounts the actions are in contravention of the Geneva Conventions. Several times Israel has wrecked ceasefire agreements by assassinations or deliberate actions meant to aggravate the situation.
Right of Return

Bringing in your people to displace us. "We regard it as morally wrong that this legal entitlement should be bestowed on us while the very people who should have most right to a genuine 'return', having been forced or terrorised into fleeing, are excluded." letter by British Jews renouncing their "right of return", The Guardian, Aug. 8, 02.

The "right of return" requires a determination to drive out the native population--it is all in the name of creating lebensraum.


Rocks

Stones. Palestinians throw stones at soldiers in tanks and armored vehicles--it is a symbol of defiance and resistance.
Security

Their security. Demand that the occupiers not be attacked, and that the violence not spill over into Israel proper. Security always refers to the safety of Israelis, it never refers to Palestinian concerns.
Settlements

The stolen land. Jews-only garrison villages built on violently confiscated Palestinian land. The purpose of the settlements is to make a permanent claim to the land, and impede the formation of a Palestinian State. These garrison villages always appear on Israeli maps, whereas the Palestinian villages whose land was confiscated for the same settlements disappear from the maps.
Strongholds, nests of terror
Refugee camps, home to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, mostly refugees from villages conquered by Israelis.Suspicion

Grounds for imprisonment or assassination.
" to say nothing of many thousands of 'suspects' rounded-up and still imprisoned by Israeli soldiers"
Edward Said, Punishment by Detail, Aug. 8, 02.
(see administrative detention)
Targeted killings

Assassination where a military commander plays the role of judge, jury, and executioner. It lists as a war crime under the Geneva Conventions where the occupier has a duty towards the captive population.

"Nobody asks whether all these people killed were in fact terrorists, or proved to be terrorists, or were about to become terrorists." Edward Said, Punishment by Detail, Aug. 8, 02.
Terrorism
Retail violence, resistance. An oppressed population has a right to resist and use violence when there is no alternative. Its violence is labeled "terrorism", and judged to be illegitimate. Israeli violence is always found to have redeeming characteristics. (see retaliation)
Town planning

"A euphemism for replacing Arabs by Jews, reminiscent of some uses of 'urban planning' in the United States." Noam Chomsky in The New Intifada.Transfer

The obscene euphemism for ethnic cleansing (which is itself a euphemism).Unconfirmed reports

Accounts of Israeli forces' depredations. Reports are only confirmed when either Israelis say so or when "Western" journalists report them. Palestinian accounts of events don't count to substantiate a report, and at best are ascribed the "alleged" adjective.

[Cyan]

Komen er nog?

[thinkalot]

Origineel gepost door Cyan

Komen er nog?

Neen, effe serieus, lees deze laatste posts eens. Ze zijn echt interessant.

[bur]

Jij zegt net dat je aanslagen door terroristen probeert te nuanceren.

Hierdoor ben ik 1 klap uitgepraat met je

[thinkalot]

Origineel gepost door bur

Jij zegt net dat je aanslagen door terroristen probeert te nuanceren.

Hierdoor ben ik 1 klap uitgepraat met je

Ja t'is makkelijk iemand te beschuldigen en als die dan bewijzen vraagt dan zeg je gwoon dat je uitgepraat bent.
Toon me de bewijzen dat ik terrorisme goedpraat!

[Cyan]

Origineel gepost door thinkalot

Neen, effe serieus, lees deze laatste posts eens. Ze zijn echt interessant.

Lees ik ze wel hoor
Vind het altijd interresant om je posts te lezen

[Blackadder]

Origineel gepost door bur

nee nee nee, je snapt het echt niet denk je nu echt slimmer te worden door met je neus in de boeken te zitten.

Je wordt slimmer door levens en praktijkervaring nothing more, nothing less.

En dat leer je niet in de boeken. Nooit van zijn levensdagen niet

Als je de hele kwestie over de problematiek in het Midden Oosten wil begrijpen, molet je toch de hele achtergrond en geschiedenis kennen kerel.
Dergelijke zaken sluimeren al decennia lang aan, misschien wel eeuwen, als je de polariteit tussen het westers imperialisme en de islamwereld wil begrijpen.
Dergelijke zaken zijn niet op te lossen door 1 welbepaalde bevolkingsgroep te demoniseren, maar daar gaat een grondig onderzoek en kennisvergaring aan vooraf, daar ga je met je levenservaring alleen niet veel mee bereiken.
Waarom denk je nu net dat net die Palestijnse terroristen en Joodse bezetters zo fundamentalistisch te werk gaan? Ja nu net omdat ze niet verder kijken dan hun eigen levenssitatie en geen oog hebben voor het geheel, waar jij je spijtig genoeg ook aan bezondigt.
Ik begrijp dan ook niet dat iedereen Thinkalot zit aftekraken voor linkse rakker, terwijl hij op een kritische manier in discussie probeert te gaan.

[thinkalot]

Origineel gepost door Blackadder

Als je de hele kwestie over de problematiek in het Midden Oosten wil begrijpen, molet je toch de hele achtergrond en geschiedenis kennen kerel.
Dergelijke zaken sluimeren al decennia lang aan, misschien wel eeuwen, als je de polariteit tussen het westers imperialisme en de islamwereld wil begrijpen.
Dergelijke zaken zijn niet op te lossen door 1 welbepaalde bevolkingsgroep te demoniseren, maar daar gaat een grondig onderzoek en kennisvergaring aan vooraf, daar ga je met je levenservaring alleen niet veel mee bereiken.
Waarom denk je nu net dat net die Palestijnse terroristen en Joodse bezetters zo fundamentalistisch te werk gaan? Ja nu net omdat ze niet verder kijken dan hun eigen levenssitatie en geen oog hebben voor het geheel, waar jij je spijtig genoeg ook aan bezondigt.
Ik begrijp dan ook niet dat iedereen Thinkalot zit aftekraken voor linkse rakker, terwijl hij op een kritische manier in discussie probeert te gaan.

Ik zou het niet beter kunnen verwoorden.
Blijkbaar als je je verstand gebruikt en de zaak tracht te begrijpen, wordt je een linkse, fundamentalistische "toekomstige" terrorist genoemd. Pas dus maar op Blackadder met jouw laatste publieke verklaring.
De problematiek is een gevolg van 100-den jaren evolutie en die kan je idd niet met levenservaring alleen gaan begrijpen.

[thinkalot]

Origineel gepost door bur

En wie waren die mensen idd terroristen,

When you play with matches, you get burned

Zie je Bur, daar reageerde je niet op he, toen ik je verbeterde (toen je had gezegd dat de slachtoffers in Beit Hanoun terroristen waren). Het waren vrouwen en kinderen. Je begon dus zaken te zeggen die volledig verkeerd waren. Dat gebeurt wel vaker in dergelijke debatten: Als je de bal misslaat dan negeer je de post en begin je over iets anders wat dan uiteindelijk ook fout blijkt te zijn je mengt je in een debat zonder de feiten te kennen. Heb je de teksten die over de geschiedenis gaan gelezen? Heb je de clipjes bekeken van holocaustoverlevenden die de bezetting als onmenselijk bestempelen? Heb je de effecten van de checkpoints gezien? Heb je de Conventie van Geneve gelezen die verklaart dat een volk het recht heeft zich gewapend te verzetten tegen zijn bezetters en de kolonisten? Dat dit geen terroristen zijn volgens internationaal recht? En dat alleen de Palestijnen die onschuldige burgers vermoorden als terroristen kunen beschouwd worden. De kolonisten die op Palestijns gebied wonen worden niet door het Verdrag van geneve beschermd. Heb je de lijst van Israelische slachtoffers bekeken? van de 600 slachtoffers is 90 procent soldaat en die mogen gedood worden door het volk die bezet wordt. Dat recht hebben ze. Maar dan zie je in het nieuws de kracht van de Israelische lobby. Twee militairen gedood in Palestina en wat zegt men? "teroristische aanslag." Dat is het niet!Het is gewapend verzet die mag volgens de internationale wetgeving.
Van de 10 000 Palestijnen die sinds 2000 gedood zijn, is meer dan 90 procent burger. De rest is militant (verzetsstrijder) of terrorist (ook een ondescheid die belangrijk is).
Dit zijn feiten die je moet kennen wil je "terrorist" en "verzetsstrijder"" niet verwarren.

ik verzeker je, laat Frankrijk belgie binnenvallen en de Vlamingen verjagen naar Nederland. Er zullen vlamingen achterblijven en de Franse kolonisten aanvallen. Als een vlaming en Franse kolonist, die tot de tanden gewapend is omdat hij weet dat hij het land, water en het huis van iemand heeft gepikt, dood, is hij dan een terrorist? Dat is geen terrorisme. Maar als je dit toepast op Joden en Palestijnen word je beschuldigt van anti-semitisme. Grappig en waarom? OMDAT ARABIEREN OOK SEMIETEN ZIJN! En omdat "Israeli" niet gelijk is aan "Jood". Want er zijn veel joden tegen de bezetting.

LEARN THE FACTS!