Nog wat meer verwarring

[El Comandante]

Ondanks de vele discussies op DBB in de AAS-sectie waren de meesten het wel over één ding eens: HCG als nakuur is een old-school theorietje dat niet meer opgaat. HCG bevordert wel even de testikel-groei maar ramt eigenlijk weer even hard chemisch je eigen aanmaak achteruit. Toch...? Toch....?

Zie hier een artikeltje van ons aller BigCat, nog steeds mod op dit forum maar lang lang geleden vertrokken naar zo'n bergenachtig grensgebied waar ie zich schuilhoudt en leuke stukjes schrijft over de spullen die ons bezighouden.

Zie hier een artikel waarin HCG weer gewoon keihard wordt aangeraden in een nakuur! Ja! Het mag weer!

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

References

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9

[axestream]

..maar dat staat toch al veel langer in BC's "steroid profiles"?

The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex. When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cathcg.htm

[El Comandante]

't Gaat er in deze niet om hoe lang het er staat, het gaat erom dat het een discussie omdraait Bovendien weet ik me te herinneren dat BC zelf ook geen voorstanders was van nakuren met HCG. Maar goed, 'just for the record'.

[Black Knight]

stoker!
Misschien is het wel leerzaam als we wat ervaringen uitwisselen?
En dan bedoel ik mensen die "old style" en "new style" hebben (na)gekuurd met HCG.
Waar hield je beter je gains mee vast? Met welke had je de minste bijwerkingen?

[El Comandante]

Ik doe het graag zo min mogelijk onderdrukkend. Ik zet in het midden van een kuur altijd 2 weken 3x1500IU en aan het einde ook.

Wat me erg aanstaat in dat artikel is dat ie Clomid toch afraadt gezien de bijwerkingen en het feit dat Nolvadex gewoon krachtiger is

[Elmo]

Dat met die bijwerking van Clomid valt reuze mee. Clomid krijgt vaak de schuld van het kutgevoel na een kuur. De combi van 50mg Clomid en 20mg Nolva is mijn favoriete nakuur. Je moet gewoon met mate doseren en niet zoals sommigen doen in de eerste week van de nakuur 100mg Clomid naar binnen werken. Dat is vragen om moeilijkheden!

Origineel gepost door DBC01

Ik doe het graag zo min mogelijk onderdrukkend. Ik zet in het midden van een kuur altijd 2 weken 3x1500IU en aan het einde ook.

Wat me erg aanstaat in dat artikel is dat ie Clomid toch afraadt gezien de bijwerkingen en het feit dat Nolvadex gewoon krachtiger is

[El Comandante]

Náááást de Nolva en Clomid zet ik dan een kleine hoeveelheid HCG.
Ik heb geen last van kut-gevoel na de kuur omdat ik al van tevoren inplan dat als ik me kut voel, het lekker door de roids komt. Dan is mijn kutgevoel meteen weer weg.
Wat ik wel merkte is 'blurred vision' en heel emotioneel worden. Nou da's 1000% Clomifen meneer, no doubt.

IK neem ook geen eerste week 100mg, ik pak altijd 4 weken Nolva@20mg/dag en 4 weken Clomid@50mg/dag.

[MrJ]

Het komt gewoon uit z'n Steroid profiles die er alweer jaren staan.

Het grappige is dat er hier veel beweerd wordt dat Chlomid juist een positieve invloed heeft op je LH afgifte, terwijl BC anders beweerd:

The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

[Thanatos]

Die BC profiles staan er al erg lang.. en zijn deels weer beetje achterhaald of aan revisie toe..

Over het HCG verhaal ik ga tijdens komende kuur ook werken met injecties HCG. 2x500iu per week vanaf week 5 (12 weken kuur). Dit omdat ik het logischer vind. Een wijs gezegde is ; Voorkomen is beter dan genezen. En dat is precies het verschil tussen HCG tijdens en na de kuur. Na de kuur is het leed al geleden, je testikels zijn al geatroffeerd doordat ze buiten werking zijn gesteld door de exogene test. toevoer. Dmv 2x500iu's zetten in de week voorkom je de atrofie en zijn je testikels beter instaat op te starten/functioneren als de exogene test. weg valt.

Ik heb mijn vorige kuur beeindigd met 2x2500iu's en 2x 1250iu's om de 5 dagen. Nu ga ik het eens op de 'nieuwe' manier proberen om te zien wat het doet.

[Elmo]

Dat klopt bij echt landurig gebruik ook. Bij Nolvadex wordt dan de repons van LH op GnRH verbeterd terwijl die bij Clomid afneemt.

Origineel gepost door MrJ

Het komt gewoon uit z'n Steroid profiles die er alweer jaren staan.

Het grappige is dat er hier veel beweerd wordt dat Chlomid juist een positieve invloed heeft op je LH afgifte, terwijl BC anders beweerd:

[bencher]

ik had ook last van blurred vision, zo erg dat ik na 10 dagen met de clomid ben gestopt en nog een weekje of 2 op nolva alleen ben doorgegaan.

is dit normaal dat je er zo slecht van gaat zien?

[MrJ]

Origineel gepost door bencher

ik had ook last van blurred vision, zo erg dat ik na 10 dagen met de clomid ben gestopt en nog een weekje of 2 op nolva alleen ben doorgegaan.

is dit normaal dat je er zo slecht van gaat zien?

Kan idd voorkomen ja.

[reusje20]

ik kan ook niet tegen clomid, blurred vision heb ik geen last van, maar als ik een augurk zag moest ik al bijna huilen !
wat een zooi niet !

[Mr. Symmetry]

Dat heb ik met uien...